Grappling, Immobilize, and Daze

[BeardedDork]

So I keep running up against this wall. My players will use Immobilize (mostly) on my villains, or wrestling, if for some reason they suspect immobilize won't work, to completely nullify them. I've seen complaints that Daze presents the same problems but that has never been my experience with it.
So aside from giving every single villain Never Surrender, which at this point I tend to do, though it only means the hero has to do it twice or maybe three times if I've got the setbacks to spend on another escape. How do people deal with this?
I've tried to come up with scenarios where Immobilizing the villain doesn't solve the problem, but it gets harder and harder to engineer such situations, and immobilizing the villains until the cops show up is just so damnably effective.
Effective but not really fun. I feel like my players are missing out on the fun because they found the win button.
I'm stumped.

[Dustland]

I guess it depends on what kinds of villains the players are up against. A villain with teleport or the ability to attack the players mentally won't be terribly hamstrung by immobilize.

One option to make immobilize less a "one shot kill" power against physically weak opponents is to allow immobilized target's checks to accumulate from round to round. Sure someone with x2 Brawn is umlikely to roll a 40 in a single page, but over the course of a few pages they certainly could rack up 40 points.

[Baelor]

Immobilize still requires a to hit roll, so villains with high defense will be tough to pin with Immobilize, even for a hero with a good to hit. A villain with Danger sense would be very difficult to hit even by a Sneaky Immobilizer.

But the real gold of BASH for me is the jazz of the characters. What is the nature of the Immobilization - then look for ways that it can be negated or thwarted, and apply that thinking to the design of you villains - at least occasionally.

Types of Immobilization:
Web - well it's solid, so anything not solid isn't affected. A character with an energy form, or ghost form would waltz right through it. A character with summon or conjure or Telekinesis can use their powers while Immobilized, effectively using the Web or whatever as ablative armour [also works for indirect powers while held in a force field]. This goes for most physical forms of restraint - encased in rock, steel, etc, or wrapped in chains or conjured ropes. Damage aura would also weaken, or even destroy, these automatically.

Energy Cage - what sort of energy? Resistance or Immunity to that energy grants the same vs effects as well as damage, so the Crimson Bands of Cytorak don't hold so well against the demon with Magic Resistance. A techy energy field could be negated by a tech-savvy hero with a gadget.

Just about any element could be either negated by having the same elemental ability or destroyed with an opposing one. A water-controlling villain shorting out the electrical arcs holding him, a fire hero melting the rock or boiling the water, etc.

A villain with Mastery over the thing that the Immobilize is made out of should be pretty much able to take them over and use them as her own, though it might cost her a hero point. Certainly she can counter, weaken or turn off the Immobilize though, as the power states.

Finally, team members or even minions can aid the character in breaking free, just like the PCs probably do when you throw Immobilize on them.

Of course, you don't want to negate the power 100% of the time, that would be counter-productive. Make sure, especially after you start having some villains negating the benefit of Immobilization, that you let the power do what it is intended to do a decent amount of the time.

[BeardedDork]

The thing is it's not that simple. It really stretches credulity to have a significant number of villains who can overcome a particular character's Immobilization. and with multiple characters with the ability you reach that point pretty quickly. After a few months of play, I'm at that point.

To be honest I don't know what I'm looking for here.

[Baelor]

OK. You have multiple characters who took different sorts of Immobilization? It sounds like the players are gaming the system, in which case it is there own * fault if they are not having fun.

I can understand that you don't want to have a large number of you villains immune to their pack of immobilizers.

Would it be worth it to speak to them and lay out you problem? Would they respond in a useful manner? What if you pointed out that they are forcing you to react to their 'tactic' in ways that reduce the verisimilitude and fun for you?

I sympathize with your dilemma, though. If you come up with a fix I would like to hear about it.

[MrJupiter]

If "The Talk" doesn't seem to alter their actions (or powers), I'd hit them with a few villains using similar abilities - like Daze - a couple of adventures in a row and ask how they feel when it's turned on them. (If that doesn't work, maybe have Galactus come over and strip them of their powers - Ummm. Just kidding... but...).

[BeardedDork]

Immobilize is just too good not to take if you can justify it, and you're the kind of person who cares about how good a power is. Two of my players are crunchy war-gamer types. (the ones who currently have immobilize.)

Though one of the other players did of his own accord swap out his immobilize for push, to add variety to the game.

I don't use the optional advancement rules, in my games but I do periodically allow rebuilds. I think I may have to have a rebuild session soon and maybe house rule an increased cost to immobilize, but I would rather improve the game with a carrot rather than a stick.

[BeardedDork]

(If that doesn't work, maybe have Galactus come over and strip them of their powers - Ummm. Just kidding... but...).

we're playing in a version of the DCU so it would have to be Darkseid, but yeah. They just aced Deathstroke the Terminator way to easily (ie. at all. I didn't think they would be able to beat him in a fight).

[BASHMAN]

If this were my group, I'd deal with it in the following ways:

1. You can't immobilize what you can't hit. Super-fast , duplicating, and invisible enemies present big challenges here.
2. Telekinesis works even if you are immobilized (it's a mental power, requiring no physical movement).
3. All sorts of powers work while grappled. Eyebeams won't be stopped until somebody specifically tries to *restrain* your eyebeams.
4. It's hard to gang up on a villain when the villains have equal numbers or outnumber the heroes. Be sure also to have a diverse array of capabilities among villains.
5. Villains can do it too.
6. Bricks can often break out of an Immobilize effortlessly.

[Paladin]

If this were my group, I'd deal with it in the following ways...

I am interested, Chris, in what you think of this idea -

One option to make immobilize less a "one shot kill" power against physically weak opponents is to allow immobilized target's checks to accumulate from round to round. Sure someone with x2 Brawn is umlikely to roll a 40 in a single page, but over the course of a few pages they certainly could rack up 40 points.

This idea seems to make good sense to me.

[BASHMAN]

I could see that. But eventually even a random mugger would manage to escape from it. And leaving a bunch of webs attached to a lampost with no random mugger tied to it, is no better than littering.

[Paladin]

I could see that. But eventually even a random mugger would manage to escape from it. And leaving a bunch of webs attached to a lampost with no random mugger tied to it, is no better than littering.

(a) One could make the argument that the random mugger should eventually break out of it, though it should probably take a long time. After all, if someone were entangled far out in the forest, you'd like to think they could get away at some point - or that's murder.

(b) Perhaps treat it in a similar fashion to Force Field - the first ten points of Immobilize act to soak, while the remaining points are Hits. In that instance, I'd say you could go ahead and put all five levels into effect (instead of capping at 30).